用户讨论:SElephant/Container2005Q4
Country and State article University links
Hi, I just thought I would put one or two major universities under each country and American state article on zh wikipedia; I am not thinking to put more than a representation; 'each university' would not be listed. Since there are so many travelogues, sets of pictures, redundant government websites, etc under these articles already, or will be in the future, I see no reason not to continue putting one or two major university links under each geopolitical article. Does this sound ok to you? --McTrixie 18:07 2005年11月8日 (UTC)
- Sorry but I can't agree with your opinion. It's not really a good excuse to illeagally dump garbage somewhere just because there was already garbage or there might be some more later. The "External Links" should be treated as an internet version of references, instead of links someone thinks funny and added without meaning. Those links added should be relevant to the main topic, and be helpful to readers of the article if they want something more than the introduction on Wikipedia. Or, they can be treated as a reference if someone wants to doublecheck the truth or false stated in the article. I noticed that you added many links from a website www.xzqh.org on some country articles, and those links are relevant because their main topics are about those countries exactly. However, I can't figure out any meaning if we put couple of university links in a country article. If you said you do this just because it's no harm, then why you choose School A and School B, but not School C or School D, or even let School E,F,G,H......to School Z all showed on the same page? Or, why you choose universities instead of elementary schools or some fastfood chains or book stores? We can avoid ambiguity by narrowing our selection to those links really relevant to main topics. I didn't find many travelouges on Chinese wikipedia, but government websites should be considered redundant. Actually I think they're quite essential, or at least, we should include the websites of certain country's president office, main legislation and jurisdiction bodies, the central Executive unit, and foreign affair office (because it contains introduction of the country most of the time).--泅水大象 讦谯☎ 05:43 2005年11月9日 (UTC)
- One would have to point out this garbage. I need some help here. --McTrixie 10:04 2005年11月9日 (UTC)
- Sorry I missed a very important word in my previous post. Acutally I mean government websites should "NOT" be considered redundant. About the garbage topic, it's only an example to express what I think, please forgive me if you think it rude. What I mean is actually "We should not keep an article massy just because it's massy. We should improve it instead."--泅水大象 讦谯☎ 12:32 2005年11月9日 (UTC)
- Sorry, I don't know what to say. My Chinese isn't good enough to explain; it should be. Because I can't explain it in real words, I will have to be stereotypical, and I will have to explain that I spent a lot of time with a friend of mine, Korean American, from a big medical family; the stereotype is that college is important to Asians. That is my experience. She told me "those links are good. You really know what Asian parents like". I am sorry for the stereotype; I don't know how to write it in Chinese. Sorry. The weird thing is, that here in America, and compared to 'European Americans', its a little true. It's a really good thing, so its not a problem.
- I figure if someone is reading the Brasil article, one might feel like actually going there and studying! And there is the link: University of Sao Paolo, 'the best university in Brasil'. I went to the site and read the Portuguese and put it right in. I actually had a problem in the Nigerian page. There was a big university, and a site, that was actually a con! I was quite scared at that point, and decided not to put any links for Nigeria, even though the Financial College was probably legit. If someone was reading Wikipedia and clicked into that con site, I would actually really be in trouble. So, I check. For the American states, its very easy for me to find the right one because I am American. For Massachusetts, I just picked UMass and Harvard. It was very easy. There doesn't have to be a list, the "Education in Massachusetts" page will have all the links in a list. For foreign countries I just check and see. If someone is actually interested in looking at a college site, there doesn't have to be more than one or two. They will just click to other universities.
- Colleges and universities can provide the most important part of a city. I live near Boston, and Harvard is the entire city of Cambridge, which is part of Boston, although it is a separate town. It would be unthinkable to write the Boston page without a link to Harvard; its the most important and famous thing in that town. I haven't checked, but isn't Bei Da a link on the Beijing page on Chinese Wikipedia? I think I added it to the Beijing page on English Wikipedia.
- The same is true for the big state schools in places like Iowa, Kansas and Texas. The college towns provide the center for the state. College towns like Austin, Texas; Lawrence, Kansas; and the University of Iowa and Grinnell, Iowa are the places that the people love the most.
- Since everything we have here on the computer and internet comes from college, we have to support our colleges and universities by making them accessible to the readers. And, aren't most readers of the Wikipedia very interested in college?
- Finally, and I am sure you won't argue with this, the people at the colleges, like at the University of Khartoum in Sudan, really really really want their college to be in the page. Think of that. Without colleges, most cities would be really sleazy places. Thank you. --McTrixie 13:01 2005年11月9日 (UTC)
- Langauage is just a tool for communication, so it's okay with me to type English as long as you can understand what I mean. I know you start your thinking from a practical point of view, often thinking "maybe I can put some more things in if someone may be interested in...". It's not a bad thinking, but still, I disagree most of your reasons if we're talking about an encyclopedia like Wikipedia.
- The main concern of Chinese Wikipedia should be set upon all the population who can read Chinese globally, not constrained to some Asian parents who think universities are the most important thing above all. I asked my parents (of course, they are both Asians) what is the most important thing for them if we're talking about a foreign country or city just a few minutes ago. Their answers are like "where can I find a good but cheap hotel there?" "is there anything worthy for a visit?" "how to get there from Taiwan? which airline we should take?" or simply "what is it?". They don't really pay attention to any schools at all, but I think they're another kind of stereotype and why didn't you think about to furfill their need? (actually I think it is the common sense people might think while asked about a foreign city or country, no matter they are Asian parents or not). Also, although last answer "what is it?" might sounds stupid, it's actually what an encyclopedia article should answer. Please always bare this in mind, that an encyclopedia is not an education resource web, a school ranking guide, or a proper place for someone who wants to promote his school on internet. If they want to do it, please go to a proper place or just put a website on net. Don't worry if someone needs it can't get in, because his Google god will guide his way!
- In your arguement, you listed many American schools which mostly situated in countryside and formed as part of the cityscape. You said it is proper to put an EXTERNAL LINK in each of these campus cities' articles because schools are essential for those cities. I think you missed two major points by saying this.
- First, you over-generalized some special cases into common practice. I think, among millions of cities and towns around the world, these "campus cities" are just a small fraction. Take my hometown Taipei for example, it's the capital of Taiwan, and is the city where National Taiwan University located, which is the best (according to ranking of joint entry exam) and the biggest (according to the land area) university in town. Although NTU is part of something you must mention if we're talking about education resource of Taipei. But, Taipei won't be nothing if we erase this part from the article, it's still a great city with lot of important things to talk about, like its geography, demography, and history. The same thing applied if you draw out NYU from New York City, or omit London Business School from London. Schools are just a small part for most of the cities in the world. Not so big deal as you think!
- Second, if you really think those informations about universities are very important and want to have them on Wikipedia. What you should do is not ONLY put an EXTERNAL LINK about the school in a country or city article. The correct Wiki way to do this is adding an article about the school itself, writing some introduction in the article, putting your beloved EXTERNAL LINK on that page for people to reference. Finally, putting an INTERNAL LINK in the city page for someone to follow. If you added those external links by this way, I'll say thank you and clap hands for you. Please consider to adjust your current method to co-op with the basic rules here, because I can feel that you're really want to help but help in a not-so-welcome way so far.
- If someone in Sudan REALLY REALLY REALLY wants us to know the existance of his school, he should love to fill up this link 喀土穆大学 for us so everybody can see it here. Shouldn't he?--泅水大象 讦谯☎ 16:15 2005年11月9日 (UTC)
Firstly, you over-generalized some special cases into common practice. I think, among millions of cities and towns around the world, these "campus cities" are just a small fraction.
- This paragraph is from a message you posted on User:McTrixie. As far as this statement is concerned, I am not sure that this is statistically true. In some parts of the world, such as the Amazon rainforest and in parts of Africa, it might be possible to be somewhere where there is no school nearby. But if one considers the eastern seaboard of North America, or Korea, one knows that, contrary to there being "just a small fraction" of "campus cities", it is actually impossible to be somewhere where there is not a college or university. Did you miss this obvious point in your reasoning when you wrote this paragraph? --McTrixie 10:51 2005年12月3日 (UTC)
The main concern of Chinese Wikipedia should be set upon all the population who can read Chinese globally, not constrained to some Asian parents who think universities are the most important thing above all. I asked my parents (of course, they are both Asians) what is the most important thing for them if we're talking about a foreign country or city just a few minutes ago. Their answers are like "where can I find a good but cheap hotel there?" "is there anything worthy for a visit?" "how to get there from Taiwan? which airline we should take?" or simply "what is it?".
- This one doesn't make sense either. Did you even go to school? And if you didn't, do you have a job? With machine tools and accounting software? Like from MIT or accounting school? So you have something to do during the day, or so your paycheck doesn't get screwed up? --McTrixie 10:59 2005年12月3日 (UTC)
Take my hometown Taipei for example, it's the capital of Taiwan, and is the city where National Taiwan University located, which is the best (according to ranking of joint entry exam) and the biggest (according to the land area) university in town. Although NTU is part of something you must mention if we're talking about education resource of Taipei. But, Taipei won't be nothing if we erase this part from the article, it's still a great city with lot of important things to talk about, like its geography, demography, and history. The same thing applied if you draw out NYU from New York City, or omit London Business School from London. Schools are just a small part for most of the cities in the world. Not so big deal as you think!
- And what is this? I am sure Taipei would be nothing if NTU were erased from the city, as you stated so very clearly. Where do you think the Taiwan balance of trade surplus comes from? Cheap hotels and sightseeing spots? I suggest you take a long hard look at en:hard disk and en:fiber optics so you know where your money comes from, Mr. Elephant! --McTrixie 11:06 2005年12月3日 (UTC)
- 基本上老兄您的逻辑已经烂到一个境界，以至于我已懒得再打一大篇英文去想办法说服这样一个说话颠三倒四的人。我只能说，教育很重要，但教育不是一个城市的全部，您之所以听不懂我在解释些什么，可能是因为您的教育程度比我低的缘故，因此我不会太过与您计较，毕竟我占了高教育水准的优势，应该得理让人就是了。以上！--泅水大象 讦谯☎ 16:18 2005年12月3日 (UTC)
阿联酋 v.s. 大公国
“阿联酋”为“阿拉伯联合酋长国”之简称，只有大陆方面这样用。台湾外交部网站云：“阿拉伯联合酋长国，简称大公国。”
既然两地简称不一样，所以我也设定转换。但台湾其实很少单用“大公国”，加上转换“大公国”可能造成错误，所以设定单向的“阿联酋”→“大公国”，希望您能谅解。Koika 17:33 2005年11月9日 (UTC)
- 我知道你的用意，但是全面转换‘阿联酋=>大公國’并不是个好主意，因为事实上，世界上并不止存在一个大公国（所以我觉得外交部网站上的那个简写，有点错误），例如列支敦士登就是另一个现存的范例，更不用说在很多讨论欧洲中世纪历史的条目中，会经常出现这名词。今天是因为阿拉伯联合酋长国的条目主旨是讨论UAE这国家，所以把阿联酋转换成大公國我们也不会误解此大公国是在指哪个大公国。但假如今天我们跳离这条目，是在随便一个别的条目中看到“大公国”这三个字，此时就很混淆，到底这名字是在指UAE这国家？还是列支敦士登？还是圣马力诺？还是......因此我建议要的话还是改为‘阿联酋=>阿拉伯聯合大公國’会比较不容易造成混淆！--泅水大象 讦谯☎ 17:54 2005年11月9日 (UTC)
关于MMORPG
Wikipedia:命名常规中注明：除非原文比中文翻译在中文中更加常用，请使用中文来对条目进行命名 经过本人在Google搜索引擎搜寻后，得到以下结果：
- 关于MMORPG大约有443,000 页简体中文 和 繁体中文搜寻结果
- 关于大型多人在线角色扮演游戏大约有115,000 页简体中文 和 繁体中文搜寻结果
- 关于大型多人线上角色扮演游戏大约有969 页简体中文 和 繁体中文搜寻结果
很明显，MMORPG比其中文翻译更常用，也被更多人接受。而且，MMORPG的中文名在中国才比较常用，但在其他地方，如香港，则几乎不会。要知这是中文维基，不是中国维基，故此本人认为以MMORPG作条目名比其中文名更适合。而且以MMORPG作条目名更能专重原作者。
- 感谢您的迅速回应，不过建议在留话时记得加上签名，以方便回复！关于条目的译名问题，我想您可能有点误会规则说明中那条但书的使用机会，那条但书主要是用在没有适切且广为接受的中文译名之事物上，在不得以的状况下才保留在标题上秀上外文。但是，“大型多人线上角色扮演游戏”跟“MMORPG”这两个用法的Google搜索结果，我认为只能证明两种译法在中文环境都有很高的接受度，但并不能用搜寻数量多寡来判断谁的“正统性”比较强，毕竟，前者是一个非常冗长的名称，后者则是一个缩写，缩写的用途是用来代替过长的原名，因此它的使用几率高本来就是天经地义的现象，就好像“USA”这缩写在Google搜索里有7.86亿次的结果，比它的全名“United States of America”的2亿次多了三倍有余，但这并不能代表USA就比全名来得“广为人们所接受”，这样的现象我相信在英文教育较为普及的香港地区会比较明显，是可以被理解的。不过，我对于您的陈述中“大型线上角色扮演游戏这译名在中国以外的地方，例如香港，则几乎不会使用”的说法抱持怀疑的态度，因为在一些以香港为根据地、具有不小影响力的媒体网站上我仍然看到这中译名称的出现（参见新浪游戏、iPress的报导），可见在香港还是有人知道这用法，只是碰巧您没遇到而已，没见过不代表不存在，这是做学问时应该抱持的良好态度，共勉之！至于“要知这是中文维基，不是中国维基”这句话，竟然是从一个中华人民共和国特区居民口中说出、用在一个从没靠近过中国大陆半步的外人身上，我是觉得蛮讽刺又好笑的。只不过我们可以100%确定的是M、O、R、P、G这五个字母绝对不是中文，但这里是中文维基，相信您应该不会不赞同我这两个陈述才对吧？--泅水大象 讦谯☎ 14:43 2005年11月14日 (UTC)
- 很抱歉昨天没有时间回应，也对没有加上签名作出道歉。细阅你给我的两文篇后，想问问你一条问题：“中华人民共和国”和“中华民国”是否一样呢？很抱歉我未能从该两篇章中找到“大型多人线上角色扮演游戏”这一句，只能找到“大型线上角色扮演游戏”及“大型多人线上游戏”这两句。
- 我承认，有部分媒体在介绍一些MMORPG时都会用上中文来介绍该游戏类型，但我昨天只是说“几乎不会”，而不是“完全不会”。而且，那些媒体经常不小心将MMORPG的中文译名中“大型”或“多人”删去，而这个错误也发生在你身上。这只表示该中文译名太过复杂了，也未能符合你所说的“广为人们所接受”。
- 刚刚又找到两个例子，PChome Online将MMORPG翻译为“万人线上角色扮演游戏”，而著名MMORPG魔兽世界则将MMORPG翻译为“大型多玩家线上角色扮演游戏”。很明显，MMORPG每个人的译法都不同，“大型多人线上角色扮演游戏”怎能称得上“广为人们所接受”呢？--黑米斯 10:18 2005年11月15日 (UTC)
- 基本上拿ACG那条目当范例来支持你的意见，并不是个好主意，因为该条目本身的命题就已经被提出来检讨并认为有所不妥。别的语版的作法是怎样不该被拿来当作中文版该怎样的佐证，毕竟各语版有各自的运作方式与基本文化背景，举例来说，法文版从来就不准许使用英文缩写当作条目名，为何我们非得遵从韩文跟日文版的作法，却不考虑跟进法文版的运作方式？在中文版上存在非中文的名字，有时是不得已的作法，毕竟不是每件事物都可以找到事宜的译名，所以只好在这种情况下保留外文。但是，MMORPG就我的观点，并不觉得是因为翻译不出来而非得保留原文的状况，“原则”这种东西我认为是一种非不得已最好别随便打破的事物，在中文维基上，“尽可能使用中文”可以说是第一重要的原则因此我很尽力在维护它，这跟啥中国维基与否根本没关系。对于您这种无端就把问题泛政治化的扣帽子举动，原本我是想以委婉的方式暗示您，最好别牵扯到那里会比较礼貌点，不过既然您要继续扯下去，那我就只好不客气地明说，‘中国怎样是干我屁事了！我讲中文，但我是台湾人，请把眼睛放亮点再开口！’不过，既然您一直强调香港人只看得懂英文条目名却看不懂其中译，这让我想到最好的解决方法，就是利用繁简转换标签顾及各地读者的认知问题，这应该是个最不惹争议的折衷之道。--泅水大象 讦谯☎ 10:37 2005年11月15日 (UTC)
- 现在我不是说香港人“只看得懂英文条目名却看不懂其中译”，我是说MMORPG的中文名不只每个地方译法不同，就连每个人的译法都不同，MMORPG条目中的中文译名也不是我翻译的。学术界中跟本没有人对MMORPG的中文译法达成共识！例如在台湾，有人可能认为“大型多人线上角色扮演游戏”比较合适，但有人却可能只认同如魔兽世界官方的译法，即“大型多玩家线上角色扮演游戏”。除非原文比中文翻译在中文中更加常用，现在很明显，MMORPG比起其中文译名更能被人接受。除非维基的技术能照顾到每个人的不同翻译方法，否则我强烈建议使用每个人的认知的MMORPG作为条目名称！还有，是你拿媒体的文章当作学术问题讨论的佐证，我才跟随你用其他媒体的文章跟你讨论。你这样是否有点“自打嘴巴”呢？--黑米斯 11:01 2005年11月15日 (UTC)
- 还有，MMORPG的中文译名最初都是由媒体自行翻译的，故此本人不认为“大型多人线上角色扮演游戏”适合在１维基这注重学术的网页中使用!--黑米斯 11:37 2005年11月15日 (UTC)
- 请注意MMORPG不是“小孩子的玩意儿”，如果你能抽空看看刚才我推荐给你的那篇论文的第53页就可发现，有30岁以上的人在玩MMORPG。而且据我所知，有很多MMORPG的开发者也是接近中年。--黑米斯 13:57 2005年11月15日 (UTC)
签名
多谢提醒。今天出现问题的似乎不只我一个人，而且今天我也没改签名就出现这个问题了，可能是系统的一个虫。别人也有类似情况，看这里，smarteddy和用心阁的签名都出现了问题。等待系统修复。--'''<font color=#99ccff>瀑布寒</font>''' [[User_talk:pubuhan|'''<font size=-1]] 13:55 2005年11月15日 (UTC)
- 看了一下其他人的签名，发现果然如你所言，似乎是系统的问题，看来只能等何时这虫儿被逮了。不过，这是不是维基媒体基金会在做小手脚，警告你们这些太“花俏”的家伙，要不要考虑反璞归真一点呀？（笑～）--泅水大象 讦谯☎ 13:59 2005年11月15日 (UTC)
- 先等等啦，哈哈。如果虫子抓不住，也只好改掉了。--'''<font color=#99ccff>瀑布寒</font>''' [[User_talk:pubuhan|'''<font size=-1]] 14:03 2005年11月15日 (UTC)
承蒙提醒
多谢老兄提醒，是我不察之过，老兄言之有理。不过要确认两地译名落差确实太难，就比如老兄新建的普吉条目，在大陆这边我们也是都称之为普吉，说到布吉，往往却是指深圳郊外的一个卫星城区，不知老兄因何有此印象大陆称此岛为布吉呢？ 金翅大鹏鸟(talk) 11:06 2005年11月16日 (UTC)
- 原来在大陆Phuket也是翻译为普吉，之前没查明，现在业已补正了。当初会这样误会的主因是我在线上搜寻到许多.cn的网页称该岛为布吉，不过事后发现，原来这些网页大都是因为抄袭香港网站的文章，所以沿用了香港的翻译方式。关于繁简译名的落差要如何查证，其实也不用太担心，您只要利用转换标签加添上您有把握的简体译版，繁体的部分不妨照旧使用原文作者的称法，如果有错，自然会有更清楚状况的繁体用户去修正的！--泅水大象 讦谯☎ 11:11 2005年11月16日 (UTC)
关于各国首都列表中“波”开头国名的字音归属问题
唔...事实上我是在用新注音输入法时，才发现了这个问题，并且把“波”开头国名的项目移到“ㄆ”下面。最主要的考虑在于：这个列表是用注音作为检索标准，所以个人还是觉得—归类于正式的注音拼法开头之下比较好...。--台湾少年 11:51 2005年11月17日 (UTC)
- 后来查了一下教育部国语辞典网站...的确都是拼成“ㄅㄛ”没错。接下来我会尽速更正...。--台湾少年 11:40 2005年11月17日 (UTC)
关于新条目推荐的模板
它的底色似有不妥，这个底色是那个常见于删除通告的底色，给人的感觉不太好，也许该换作同行审订的底色会较好。--孔明居士 01:59 2005年11月24日 (UTC)
- 其实设计模板时没有多想，随便找个看起来清爽的底色就用了。目前已经改成与UpdatedDYK模板同一色系但稍有不同的配色，希望如此能比较不造成误会！--泅水大象 讦谯☎ 02:32 2005年11月24日 (UTC)
你好
虽然您反对我的推荐条目，但我还是很想认识您。如果您愿意的话，请加我的msn：[email protected]Xhzyzdcg 12:13 2005年12月7日 (UTC)
关于唱片条目
谢谢你的提醒，我会考虑将它们编成一个条目。但不知道若完成以后，旧的唱片专辑条目该如何删除呢？谢！--CY 11:06 2005年12月31日 (UTC)
- 了解了。以后还烦请您多多指教。--CY 12:07 2005年12月31日 (UTC)
- 已完成了，请您帮我删除这分类里的条目吧，谢！Category:陈绮贞音乐专辑 --CY 14:35 2005年12月31日 (UTC)
你知道吗
大象兄，现在首页上已显示了两条足球条目了，真的可以这样吗？疑惑 -0- --邓启昌 02:31 2006年1月1日 (UTC)